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Bluntman
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #1
Prepared canvas available commercially usually has an acrylic foundation that is not completely compatible with oil painting. The old masters used compatible surface preparations. Can somebody suggest how to prepare raw canvas for oil painting? Also, I would like to paint with oil on smooth wood surfaces. How should I prepare them? Thank you for the help
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DaBeatBass
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #2
If you're unwilling to use acrylic gesso, then find a copy of the painter's bible:

ARTIST's HANDBOOK, by Ralph Mayer

and follow the intstructions you'll find there for rabbit-skin glue and white lead priming. And good luck finding either real rabbit-skin glue OR white lead priming! Ralph Mayer covers priming wood panels as well.
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limerpharm
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #3
acrylic gesso is a suitable primer on canvas.There are two main schools of thought.One being that you should use rabbit skin glue first on raw canvas then follow it with a white oil primer or white lead.If you use this method,and I have,you have a lot of room for error.I ,after a few mistakes, became quite successful priming in this manner.The second school of thought,which I practice now,is using at least two or more coats of acrylic primer on either canvas or untempered masonite.The reason to prime canvas or panel is to keep your oil layers from migrating to the canvas or support.In short,an aqueous ground such as acrylic is the best barier coat because its water based instead of oil based.This takes the place of the first glue coating before an oil primer to follow.I've painted pro for over 30 years and I've found most advice books are written by less than great painters,they often disagree,and todays manufacturers have expert chemist who have ran tons of tests for permanence and strength.These companies make their money by producing the best products they can(if they're a well known outfit) if they don't deliver they don't last long.On the other hand most of the material books are rehashed theories from older studies compiled by a sometimes mediocre artist.Although containing a lot of good info. they tend to make a lot of young artist focus on everything but producing good art.

My own opinion,based on study research and choosing to produce a body of work instead of a few pictures a year. Hope this makes some sense to you.Good luck.
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0Kelvin
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #4
I don't get it. Why not just use a pre-gesso(ed) canvas?? [I think that's what they're called.]

You should be able to just skip all this confusion, no?

(I'm not a painter).
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DS_84
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #5
says...

Are you saying that you've never consulted the 'painter's bible' - Ralph Mayer's ARTISTS HANDBOOK? Surely you wouldn't include it in the 'how to' category of books published by individual artists?
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transreality
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #6
I have had no problem finding rabbit-skin glue.
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jasonalister
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #7
REAL rabbit skin, or hide glue 'hiding' behind the rabbit label? I do notice that the vendor I buy from carries it as 'rabbit skin' so I have to demur, and accept that maybe it really is. I don't use it, and never have, so I was going by what other artists have told me about the hide glue being passed off as rabbit.
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Sky-Watcher
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Posted 1 Year, 11 Months ago #8
I have painted for 15 years now and have used used acrylic primer for the past 10 without problem nor worry. It is true that 'old masters' used rabbit skin glue, danced naked round a black candle whilst thrashing themselves with an olive branch -AND!!, can you believe it - ground and mixed their own pigment (or at least their assistant did) but that was 500 years ago, before artists discovered acrylic!! Acrylic Primer and tubes of oil paint, this leave just enuogh energy left to try and do a good painting (alas it is this last part that most people neglect!)
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David
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Posted 6 Months, 3 Weeks ago #9
I have to agree with most artists about the rabbit skin glue issue. Acrylic gesso is a better product in that it is more convenient to use and is thought to outlast the rabbit skin glue which is known to deteriorate over time causing the oil paint to crack and fall off. While acrylic gesso is a fairly new product to the history of oil paintng and there is no way ,as yet, to know of it's ability to outlast rabbit skin glue, most scientists belive that it will or should due to it's chemical compound makeup.
If you want a gessoed surface that is less absorbant than traditional acrylic gesso then mix equal parts of water and acrylic gloss gel medium and add that mixture to the acrylic gesso to dilute it. You can also add acrylic color to your gesso to get a toned ground. I have been using acrylic gesso for years with oil painting and have had no problems. I have oil paintings that are 40 years old that still look like I painted them yesterday. I do have artist friends who swear by the rabbit skin glue so I have recently tried it for the first time. So far I am two days into preparing the canvas with two coats of the glue and now I have to do a white lead primer over that which will probably take 1-3 days to dry. If I had used the acrylic gesso I would be painting already. LOL Not that I mind the extra time for this experiment since I want to see if there is a real difference in the the way the oil paint handles over this type of glue ground but it is a lot of work. The best thing to do if you are really concerned about the arylic/oil combination is to buy your canvas pre-primed with two coats of oil primer. A good art supply store will sell this type of canvas or linen. Or buy online at Dick Blick art supplies. I know that they carry it.
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Charlie
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Posted 4 Months ago #10
I strech my canvas out on wooden frame, then I stick it in the shower so's its nice and tiet then a day later when its dry, I roll KILZ Bullseye oil base primer, this stuff is great when it dries it can be sanded... I'm real cheap... and thats the cheapes way I've found to get cheap canvas. If you want to be cheaper, instead of canvas by the roll, find a house painter and buy drop cloth off him .
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Eric G
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Posted 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago #11
Advantages and disadvantages:

Traditional rabbit skin glue size and oil primer -- The rabbit skin glue is hygroscopic. In simple terms, it tends to absorb humidity, which can swell and shrink the canvas in tiny amounts which, over a LONG time, MAY cause cracking. This is still up for debate as it could also be the result of poorly applied grounds, or misuse of oil paint application.

On the positive side, RSG has a SIGNIFICANTLY improved tightening effect on the canvas. There is nothing quite like painting on a RSG sized linen canvas that is tight as a drum. Additionally, RSG is a TRUE size, whereas Acrylic gesso and even PVA is NOT a real size. A size will be absorbed by the canvas fibers (and/or wood) and will provide a real inside-out protection from oil acids. The greater bloom of the size means the spaced between the fibers are fully sealed in a properly sized canvas. If you DO size with RSG, remember two things: 1) You a OIL ground to prime the canvas. Do NOT follow up an RSG size with acrylic gesso, and 2) RSG sizing is for OIL paintings only.

Acrylic Gesso -- The good? It is cheap and easy. It doesn't require heating or mixing. It does a reasonably good job of protecting the fibers from the linoleic acid in the oil paint which will rot your canvas. However, since acrylic does create a polymer barrier between the fibers and the oil, a size is not absolutely needed, though you can usually still benefit from a PVA size. The bad? Acrylic gesso is NOT a size. It doesn't penetrate the plant fibers and creates an imperfect (but still good enough for most uses) barrier between the canvas and the oil. Worse, it is acrylic and is unacceptable to degradation due to heat and, despite what people might claim, is ALSO hygroscopic (though less so than RSG). While Acrylic can be used under oil (polymerized linseed oil is fairly sticky and generally 'glues' itself quite well to all but the most glossy, impermeable surfaces) doesn't mean that is SHOULD be. Acrylic and linseed oil are two VERY VERY different beasts. The behave differently and are affected differently by atmospheric effects. For so many reasons that I do not have time to detail, you should NEVER paint oil directly over acrylic paint. Acrylic SEALS itself and doesn't allow the oil to penetrate the under-painting. The oil just sits on the top and dries as a weakly bonded film. Over time, it will almost certainly flake off. That said, Acrylic gesso is NOT acrylic paint. The A-Gesso avoids the full barrier issue by containing calcium carbonate and/or calcium silicate (over other calcium compounds) making the A-gesso lightly absorbent. This is a good thing for the oil -- but bad for the canvas as the A-gesso draws into itself small amounts of oil and MAY allow that oil to come into contact with the canvas fibers. Additionally, since the A-gesso is absorbent, it too can absorb humidity that could lead to cracking, especially in poorly stretched canvases (as premade canvases often are), of when using brittle paints (Ivory black, Zinc white, the lower quality cadmiums, etc.) Additionally, the premade canvas are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS under primed. You've all seen canvases that brag about being double or triple primed. GREAT... almost half way there! A properly primed canvas will be primed 5 to 7 times for a good protective film. Worse still, premade canvases are SPRAY primed which doesn't force the A-Gesso into and in between the fibers of the canvas. Prepared canvases are, imho, ALWAYS crap. This is the store preparation, mass market canvases (even the highest quality 'professional' quality canvases). I know there are a couple merchants and services out there that will provide a hand prepared canvas or panel and those MAY be done to the highest of standards -- but you get what you pay for, and pay for what you get.

For my buck, RSG size and an oil ground on quality (linen preferred) canvas is the way to go. Still, it takes some practice to learn how to properly size and prime a canvas, panel or paper.

Truth is, I don't use stretched canvas all that often. As I prefer a traditionally prepared panel. It has almost all the benefits of canvas (except the lighter weight) and almost none of the problems (with cracking, susceptibility to humidity, limitation of ground materials, etc.)

To create a traditional panel, you'll need, obviously, a wood panel of the appropriate dimensions. Preferable, you want single cut of radial cut hardwood, though you can get by on a properly biscuit and/or finger jointed glue-up panel. Again, radial cuts are preferred. If you want to save a bit of money, or do not have access to good wood or shop tools to plane, joint, and glue wood, you can use MDF/HDF, hardboard/Masonite, or even plywood. Just be aware that and composite wood may contain adhesives and chemicals that can out-gas that damage you painting.

Once you have you wood, I strongly urge you to cradle the panel (that is, strips of wood support around the edge of the panel) and if fairly good in size, consider cross supports. Supports add cost, weight, and are sometime difficult to properly clamp down when the wood glue is drying, so I'd only use them is your panel to very large.

One you have you panel ready and cradled (don't use staples, nails, or other fasteners -- wood glue is all you need and if applied property, is stronger than the wood itself).

When you have you panel, time to get it ready. Since you read on the directions that RSG should be soaked overnight, you were smart enough to prepare your RSG last night, or at least several hours ago.

Heat up your RSG in a double boiler to it is all melted and somewhat thickened watery solution. Do not boil RSG ever. Boiling destroys it.

Apply a thin coat of RSG to the panel. After about an hour, the first coat should look somewhat wet still, but should be reasonably dry to the touch. You can apply a second coat of this size to the wood. If you did not cradle your panel, you may start to see why I suggested the added support. RSG, once soaked into the wood, can warp it as it dries. If you do not notice it yet, you almost certainly would by tomorrow when it is fully dry. You can limit this by sizing the back side sufficiently as well.

Now, with two coats of RSG size down on the panel and when dry enough that it should not longer be wet to the touch, or slimy in any way, it is time to apply a fiber layer. I tend to use canvas because I always have it around, but you can use another COURSE fabric such as muslin. Cut a piece of material so it is an inch or two large than you panel. Depending on the dimensions, you cansoak the material in the RSG or paint it on heavily, soaking it though and through. The fibers should be fully wetted. Not, take that wet, sticky material, and cover the front of the panel. Spread it out evenly, making sure there are not wrinkles or bubbles. Some tiny bumps or imperfect textures don't matter too much.

At this point, I've had just about enough of sizing and gluing, and set the panel and the canvas facade out to dry fully -- usually ready the next day.

The next day I trim the canvas flush to the panel front. I do NOT wrap the material down the sides or around the edges like normal stretched canvas. This canvas is glued to the board and short of conservation solvents, is not coming off. Just go ahead and trim tot he edge, cleanly. Put some more RSG in the double boiler to liquefy. While waiting for it to be ready, inspect the panel to make sure the canvas is glued down 100% on every square millimeter of panel surface. If any corners are coming up, I'm take care to apply more glue to those corners to glue them down again.

Once the glue is ready, apply another coat of RSG to the canvas panel front. If you soaked the material well when you glue it on, you probably only need to size the material with one more coat. Once that coat is dry enough to not be slimy or overly tacky, it's time for the next step (my favorite). Make gesso. NOT acrylic gesso as we were talking about previously (which is not gesso at all). Gesso is made by mixing RSG with slaked plaster of paris, gypsum, whiting or marble powder. Shoot for roughly 3:1 RSG:Marble, though your exact proper mix will be learned with time and experience. Your Gesso will look and feel a bit like heavy cream.

We are going to be adding a BUNCH of coats of this gesso to the panel -- 7 or 9 perhaps, though I've added as much as 15 if I'm sanding heavily. Apply a coat in a single direction only and additional coats should be applied perpendicular to the previous. Every 3 or 4 coats, it is often a fairly good idea to sand the DRY gesso panels with a very fine grit sandpaper (320+). As you build up the gesso, you'll cover up the material completely, as well as any defects in the panel. When I think I'm getting down to the last 2 or 3 layers of gesso, I'll add a dry pigment to the gesso. Titanium or lead white (use a mask any time you are dealing with powdered pigment, but failure to do so with lead can eventually lead to your death.) creates a bright white ground, but I tend to use colored grounds, preferring Raw or Burnt Umber (defending on whether I want a yellow/green brown tone or a red/brown tone.
Paint those layers on -- this time, try to sand between each DRY layer. When you are done, you can finish the gesso panel off with a fine steel wool if your color is not reactive to irons. The end product to a flawless, amasing surface that is a true joy to paint on. It is suitable for egg tempera, casein tempra, gouache, watercolor, silverpoint, pastel/charcoal. However it is too absorbent for oil just yet, so the last thing you want to do to apply on more clean layer of RSG size WITHOUT any calcium. This will seal off the ground to a large degree and will keep the gesso from drinking up your oil.

Traditional gesso panels are VERY stable and long lasting. When done properly, and when you paint with quality paints, being careful to follow rules from drying times and fat contents, your painting will last for many, many hundreds of years.

Is the prep a pain in the butt? Absolutely! But, if you enjoy material, especially those of the Old Masters half as much as I do, it can really be fun. And, though I spoke as if doing a single panel, when I do this process, I usually do it on perhaps two dozen panels at a time, so I'm not wasting too much time and glue between coats. I usually have 5 or 6 individual quarts of glue gelled and ready to be heated. So, unless I'm prepping panels for other people (I sell my panels to fellow local artists who love the panels but do not wish to go through the preparation process), two dozen panels, will usually last me personally a few months, though I admit that I do tend to have to prep panels every couple weeks, due to my sales.

Ok, it is 2:36am and I need to go to bed. I'm reasonable sure that my exhaustion has made the above and unreadable mess.
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David
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Posted 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago #12
WOW! You really know your stuff! It was a pleasure to read your post. Very informative and so well explained. But I have a question. I have an artist friend who uses rabbit skin glue on raw linen (or sometimes raw canvas) and he said that he doesn't use any ground over it. He just coats the canvas or linen with many coats of rabbit skin glue sanding each dried layer as he goes to get a really smooth surface. Then once the last layer is dry he begins the painting using nothing but Liquin to dilute the oil paint. Questioning this technique I have read that the only reason to do a ground over the rabbit skin glue is to get a "white" ground that will give you your whitest whites in a painting. Since most or many people prefer a toned ground is it really necessary to do the gessoed ground over the glue? You said yourself that you need to apply rabbit skin glue over the final gesso layer so in essence you are actually painting on rabbit skin glue anyway. My artist friend (who I guess I should mention is not a novice and studied art in Australia. He also has a friend who is an art conservator for museums in Europe who compliments him on painting correctly....that is not to say that either of them really know what thier talking about but I would think an art conservator would). Anyway, he says that he likes to paint against the color of either the raw canvas or raw lines as a ground. The color isn't alterred (at least not by much) by coating it with rabbit skin glue. Could you please comment on this? I would be very interested in what you have to say. It is a real treat to find someone on here who knows the technical aspects of painting. I have a BA in fine art with emphasis in oil painting and I have been painting for years but using rabbit skin glue is a new process for me......!!!! I was never introduced to this before. So much for higher education!
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David
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Posted 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago #13
sorry for the typo.. in talking about painting against the color of the ground it should say raw canvas or raw "linen" not raw canvas or raw 'lines" - sigh-
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David
Guest
Posted 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago #14
also..the above two posts by "David" are addressed to Eric G. with regard to his "advantages and disadvantages" of using rabbit skin glue.
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